Another powerful Guest Post! These are so very much appreciated. They are thought provoking, passionate and offer diverse voices rather than just hearing from me. I thank you all…and encourage more of you to submit. This is a venue for us all and I welcome you to participate. The anchor point of this site is to passionately defend the separation of church and state, which leads us right into this article submitted…
by Hrafnkell Haraldsson…
It is difficult at times to believe that this is the twenty-first, and not the thirteenth, century. The behavior of the Religious Right on these shores is more like that of the Church in the Middle Ages than that of citizens of a Nation founded upon the principles of the European Enlightenment.
A case in point is that of Cecil Bothwell, elected as a member of the Asheville, N.C., City Council. There were no campaign irregularities, no sex scandals or bribes or illegal donations. Yet there is a movement afoot to keep him from his seat after being duly – and legally – elected by the voters.
Article 6, Section 8 of the North Carolina Constitution reads: “The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.”
Mr. Bothwell is an avowed atheist.
Mr. Bothwell does believe in his community, but some in his community don’t believe in him. He is the dreaded Canaanite lurking in the mythical community of the covenant.
H.K. Edgerton has threatened to file a lawsuit in state court against the city of Ashville. He wants to challenge Bothwell’s appointment to the City Council.
Because Mr. Bothwell is an atheist.
“My father was a Baptist minister. I’m a Christian man. I have problems with people who don’t believe in God.”
Edgerton is a former local NAACP president and founder of Southern Heritage 411, an organization that promotes the interests of black southerners. He is also, apparently, ignorant of Article VI of the Constitution of the United States of America – a Nation of which North Carolina is still a part.
This seems to be a lesson the Religious Right gets wrong more often than not. Mr. Edgerton does not seem to understand that he has a right to have problems with people who don’t believe in his god. What he does not have a right to do is to act upon that disapproval.
Because Mr. Bothwell has a right to not believe in Mr. Edgerton’s god. The US Constitution says so.
Edgerton is not alone, of course. The Raw Story tells us the head of a conservative weekly newspaper says city officials shirked their duty to uphold the state’s laws by swearing in Bothwell. David Morgan, editor of the Asheville Tribune, said he’s tired of seeing his state Constitution “trashed.”
Some of us are tired of seeing our national Constitution trashed and used as toilet paper. After eight years of abuse of that precious document by the Bush Administration, some of us have had enough.
The provision in the North Carolina Constitution was included when the document was drafted in 1868 and wasn’t revised when North Carolina amended its constitution in 1971.
The US Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787, by the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and ratified by conventions in each U.S. state in the name of “The People”.
Including North Carolina.
The problem for Mr. Edgerton is that Article VI of the Constitution says this about religious tests to hold office:
(Section 3) The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
Thus, the provision in the North Carolina Constitution finds itself trumped by the US Constitution.
This has happened before, in Maryland in 1961. And as Ilana Stern of Americans United for Separation of Church and State observes, “the courts have made it abundantly clear that religious tests violate the separation of church and state.”
And we all remember the case during the 2008 elections when Kay Hagan was called “Godless” by her opponent, Elizabeth Dole. Significantly, Kay Hagan is a Democrat. More significantly still, Kay Hagan is a senator from North Carolina. Ms. Hagan’s crime? Dole accused her of attending a fund-raiser hosted by a founder of the Godless Americans, a group that advocates the total separation of church and state.
Separation of Church and State. That thing our Founding Fathers gave us in the Constitution.
The implication of course, is that if you don’t believe in God, you’re not fit to hold office. Which brings us back to Mr. Bothwell.
It’s strange that a group that has tried so hard to co-opt our Founding Fathers, to turn them all into Bible-toting Christians, ignores – or intentionally forgets – that Thomas Jefferson’s proudest achievement was not the Declaration of Independence but the Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom, which states:
Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
When those on the Religious Right invoke Thomas Jefferson’s name and memory, they profane it, and insult everything he stood for. And when they rally around an unjust cause like this, they shit not only on him, but on our Constitution and on the very foundations of American democracy.
Ilana Stern says that Bothwell himself seems to think that this controversy “could make for a very interesting court case,” but, she goes on to say, “he is wrong.”
That case has already been heard, and a decision has been rendered. The state of the law is clear: Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Secular Humanists and Agnostics alike are all entitled to hold public office.
It would be satisfying to see the forces of intolerance rebuffed here, at such a critical juncture. It is a foolish battle for them to fight – or we can at least make it so for them. It is important that we progressives, so often given to intellectualism over emotion, seize this opportunity to show some of the passion of Thomas Paine, or Patrick Henry – or Thomas Jefferson. Let us make Bothwell’s cause our own, and thus part of a bigger cause, that of religious freedom in this country.
We are standing at the ramparts, my friends, defending the wall of separation from the hordes outside and from their reckless hate. It is time to rally at that wall, to hold the line, and to shout down in outrage their ravenous and destructive cries. Let’s show some emotion; let’s shout them down, and let it be seen that our outrage is greater than theirs, and more just than theirs. Let’s show them true righteous indignation.
Let’s show them our outrage.
It’s time, my friends, to make it clear to them, in terms they will understand, that we will not give up our rights, and our freedoms and our liberties to tyranny. As Patrick Henry said, “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!”
We’re throwing down the gloves. You can pick them up, but I will tell you this, it’s going to get messy, because you won’t like it when we get angry.
We’re taking back our Nation.
I like your medieval metaphor: "…standing on the ramparts…" and absolutely agree that we must take up the Armament of Reason to overcome the hordes outside our constitutional laws. But how?
We have no established organizations to compete with their politicized churches; nor do I think we will ever be able to compete along those lines. We are thinking, reasoning individuals, which makes us complicated foot soldiers who wil not mindlessly follow orders of demagogues and their self appointed enforcers. Good for us, bad for the cause. We seem forever at a disadvantage.
If you see solutions to this dilemma, please share! Ing
I know it's easier said than done (though if it was possible to get OVER 9000 people protesting Scientology in less than a month, maybe it is possible) – we may need to, ourselves, organize.
9,000 protesters vs. over One Million Friends of Sarah on Facebook! (Just read that on another site, not Ms. Palin's.) We have a looong way to go, if we want to play catch-up!
Any brain-stormers out there who can come up with feasible suggestions of how-to? Please!?!.
FTD. You are right that only reason will solve the disfuntional society we see today. It is my view that your Organizing your own thoughts is more important than getting others on board. Read, study,learn all you can till you find peace with that which you are. When in the moment, Vantage and disadvantage exist not. Our destiny is to be what we are….so be IT! The loss of our beautiful earth is not the end. You already know what you need to know.
You are so right!
I have a sculpture done by some artist in Tanzania ( found it in a corner of an antique store Tarpon Springs): It shows three abstract yet finely chiselled faces growing out of the polished stone… their heads unfinished…. to me, they are the brothers/sisters of the past, present and future. Past and Present are close, Future is somewhat separated… as it should be, as it it is not yet manifest.
The past is but a memory
The future is a mystery
Live for today… responsibly!
Now I feel I have company in my meditations… Thank you, AKjah and friends…
FTD yer not alone we hide in weird places. And yes my shit stinks.
Yer my kind of person! REALIST! Luvya!
I agree, fromthediagonal. They have the funding, the glossy books and publications and they have the organization. They also have a fanatical fervor. We can make up for some of the organizational issues – but I think to do that we need a little fervor of our own. Intellectualism often leads to detachment, and I think that's exactly the wrong approach. We need a little motivation and we need incidents like this to motivate us. Let's get mad; then let's do something about it.
You give it in a nutshell: "Intellectualism often leads to detachment…"
Obama's intellectual detachment plays well upon the international stage, but it is a disaster within the borders of this nation. There are too many who detest not only intellectuals but their capacity of engaging in face saving diplomacy while pursuing and furthering their objectives. They are repulsed by very idea that the word may be mightier than the sword.
The interesting thing is that "those of us who think" are passionate about our philosophies. Are we just less barbaric in our expression of them??? Is that why we are rather ineffective in making our strength known? Tell me.
Hrafnkell, just had to add another thought… that visceral revulsion of anything intellectual has a rather lengthy history:
Studious spinsters were considered bas bleu/ bluestockings = readers = education.
School skipping, gun toting, hunting boys were considered Red-Blooded Americans.
Sum Total? Education is girly? Can't have that! Consequential mindset:
Educated girlies don't defend the country against the Barbarians at the Door!
Time to leave national adolescence behind and move on towards adulthood, and rapidly!
Hope we can do it in time.
fromthediagonal, you may be right about passion – certainly nobody – including liberals, like to have their beliefs challenged. Beliefs are dear to all of us. Perhaps we funnel our passion inwards where it exists. I turn my outwards. I got involved, first, religiously, be joining Northvegr Foundation, becoming a Board member, and then after leaving, starting a blog about Heathenism, then a foundation of my own. Those were both meant as "positive" more than "negative" channels, in that I saw both projects primarily focused on promoting Paganism as opposed to combating intolerance, though the two meshed in time, and now I see them as inseparable – largely because of the actions of the Religious Right. I've been accused of attacking Christianity – by Pagans no less! – because Pagans don't do that. So I'm a militant Heathen, apparently, because I'm willing to speak up rather than be a "good-Indian" (and a fat lot of good that will do the meek if we end up with a theocracy – just as all the good-Indians found out in the 19th century).
We all have passions, we can all find ways to channel them productively. I write, and I write endlessly, on religion, on Church and State, on the threat of theocracy, on the dangers posed by the Religious Right, on politics and religion. I'm passionate about these things now, where before I think I had a certain intellectual detachment from them – it was an academic question more than a question of how it applied in the real world. But the Religious Right go in my face, and I push back now.
There are times when one has to push back. My note to "Thomas Paine" is one of those moments, even though I belong to the somewhat "ideologically detached" group. At this late stage of my Earth Walk I embrace all who are willing to embrace true "live and let live" enlightenment of tolerance, but I am still willing and mentally capable (I hope) to fight abuse in the name of any religion. May God, whoever She may be, protect us from fanatics of all stripes. This is heresy to many, but So Be It!
Education is the only answer I would suggest,which is exactly what your doing ! How to reach the multitude is the problem.If I had read your posts ten years ago I would have dismissed it without thought. I was hooked and no one could tell me there was something wrong with my Church or my beliefs. I left my first group because of the Pastor.(I indicated this to Leah in another reply) I was looking for another Fundamental Church .As it turned out that did'nt happen .It took awhile to understand the deception.(By the way it took even longer to really believe the truth, there was something in the back of my mind telling me I should'nt think that way ,That It was the worst sin against God ." It's a hard sell to a believer"
This is the problem I am railing against! There is a term for this: Stockholm Syndrome!
Even those abducted at gunpoint (or whatever means of implied violence) will eventually sympathize with their captors if held incommunicado from other points of view… in other words… from Society At Large. I believe this is what happens, beginning with home schooling.
The most effective changes will come from YOU and all of you who have left the oppression of a belief which is destructive to the very core of individuality. Correct me if I am wrong. I shall listen.
I read an article recently discussing various methods of dialogue that could be employed to “reason” with Christian Fundamentalists.
The article concluded that you cannot use reason or facts since neither exist within Religon.
The author likened these people to the village idiot and you don’t reason or build policies around the idiot. You ignore them and construct your plans around rational reasonable people.
This does not help the dilemma America is facing as the village idiot ran things for 8 years and his handlers are still around and influencing policy.
I truly believe the recent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were based on religous rather than economic reasons. Sure some people are making a profit but war always produces profiteers.
Christians are awaiting the Rapture. And the sooner the better. Provoking a war with the other major religon on the planet is a large step towards armageddon and therefore their salvation.
Bad news from the Middle East is bad news for humanity but good news for the village idiot awaiting salvation/rapture etc.
I don’t have any answers on how to combat this threat to humanity but raising awareness is a good step forward
Agreed!
I'm sorry, but I resent your gathering "Christians" under one umbrella. I would much prefer if you stated that "Evangelical 'c'hristians" are awaiting the Rapture. I happen to be a very liberal, think-for-myself Christian who is as much an advocate of keeping Christianity out of the Constitution as anyone on this blog.
I don't even believe in the Rapture (at least in the way most Christians do), and some of these conservatards aren't waiting for the Rapture, they're trying to bring it on themselves.
sunnyjane, Sensitivity Training all around:
Please do not say "I'm sorry"! It is your right to remind all of us that generalizations are usually harmful to the discussion, and there is no need to apologize.
I cringed at the term "Village Idiot" in the article Circle quoted, but overall agree with the sentiment.
That said, let us remember the old english quote: "I it better to mince one's words, for one may have to eat them"… and that is the essence of any true discussion.
No person likes to lose face, no matter how intense the debate.
I keep having a problem replying. Oh, well.
As was my mother – she understood that the Bible was not the inerrant or literate word of "God" and that the Book of Revelation spoke to events in the second century, not the distant future.
Unfortunately, moderate Christians seem to get subsumed into the category of Fundamentalist Christians and I personally believe that is in part due to the relative lack of response we see from moderate Christians against the people who have hijacked their religion. We need some anger from you folks too. Some outrage.
Porphyry, the 3d century Pagan philosopher (and critic of Christianity) said that arguing with a Christian was like "trying to draw on water" or words to that effect. I'd have to find the exact quote. But it's still accurate today. Nothing has changed. "Believers" will not listen to reason, even while they accuse us of "drinking the kool-aid" – a laughable image considering that the folks in Jonestown who drank the kool-aid were Christians waiting for the rapture – but then that brand of Christian doesn't live in an evidence-based world.
To Fromthediagonal I do my best to bring change to my family and anyone willing to listen (Not many want to listen) My wife thinks I've lost it .I've been mildly effective nothing to brag about !Trust me their not all blithering idiots and I think that kind of talk will never endear them to the truth,I know it would have turned me off.Circle could rethink that approach.Even tho I might agree with that term
You ain't the only one, a couple people tell me I been going off the deep end about these people, when I've seen it and know it exists.
My philosophy is this: We all are but grains of sand on the beach, buffeted by the elements, and all we can do is try to make an impression upon those five grains around us.
As we are tossed all over the place, those five grains are ever shifting as well. If we do it right, they in turn will impact those around them and pass on an ever growing message. Whether that message is for good or for ill is our choice for which we are responsible.
I know this may be lame analogy, but that is how I approach my surroundings.
You are absolutely right, discussions about belief are always fraught with land mines and all concerned have to tread lightly if minds are to be permitted openness. Confrontational approaches only cause anger and frustration on both side. Live your own change, live it well, and by doing so, you may gradually bring about that opening of minds you desire within your family. Once that happens, they influence others. My hopes are for your success.
My first encounter with Fundamentalism was in the "Charismatic" movement back in the 70s, when they took over my moderate-leaning Church. I left. My mother was on the Church council and stuck it out for a few years before the entire council up and resigned. We were all told we needed to be born again or Jesus would have no real meaning to us. That was just one step on my road to polytheism (there was a lot more to it and it didn't begin there).
I personally (having been one) think Christians are conditioned by weekly "indoctrination" sessions – basically, let's get together every week and be reassured we haven't made a terrible mistake. There is safety in numbers. If somebody leaves, they try to get them back – it's a threat – especially if that person leaves and prospers. If you read back through early American history, the "City on the Hill" was threatened by all the "unholiness" outside it for the same reason – at least in the minds of those in that city. From earliest times, some Christians have felt persecuted because they have to live in a world of "non-believers". It's hard to escape all that. It's drilled into you from the time you're born.
And I'm not trying to lump all Christians together here, but as a Christian, how are you going to know – given it's the only thing you know – that you're in with a group of people who have twisted things around?
My progression in the movement went from a little "Bible Believing group " to" Charismatic and Born Again Fundamentalism" Coming from a Catholic background and a deep resentment of abusive Nuns in Grammer School I was Ripe for something that seemed to be very right! It still haunts me and its a fight to stay away even with all I know about it. I'm stuck in limbo on where to go from here.And I'm telling others about the evils of where I came from,figure that one out ?
I think one of the problems we face as a culture is that Christianity spent the better part of 17 centuries destroying every alternative to itself – all the ethnic religions of all the people who now make up America – Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Norse, etc. All gone. Some nations, Estonia, etc, seem more comfortable with embracing those old traditions and beliefs. What should be the alternative to Christianity – those ethnic religions – are coming back in fits and starts, like my own Norse Heathenism. There ARE alternatives out there to Christianity again, after 17 centuries. That is how I came to be a polytheist, back in 1979. For me it was an epiphany. Why did the idea of one god make more sense than the idea of many? It didn't, I realized. There was nothing more natural about it once I got past the indoctrination I'd experienced as a child. I'm not urging anyone to become a polytheist; what I am saying is that there are alternatives – we've just all been conditioned not to see them.
Tom, the more you widen your view of other traditions, other belief systems, the more you will understand that which is truly important: There is only one constant in the Universe, and that is Change! From the smallest to the largest, entities come into existence, live for a span of time and die… to become something else. I am no astrophysicist by any means, but the idea that cosmic energy is constantly changing makes much sense to me. Stars are born, live and die to become black holes… to be reborn on the other side? Read and think!
What kinds of rituals we use to give us that understanding is immaterial, as long as it puts us at peace with the acceptance of our own rather short physical life span.
When birthed into Life, we are Pure Energy taking Form, and when in death we shed that shell, we once again become Pure Energy. In other traditions this is called a Return to God/ Goddess/AllFather/EarthMother. I accept all existence, the circle of Birth, Life, Death and Rebirth as synonymous with the Wheel of the Year of the Ancients in all parts of Mother Earth. Sadly, more wars have been fought and more atrocities have been committed over Rituals of Respect than over land ownership.
Tom, the more you widen your view of other traditions, other belief systems, the more you will understand that which is truly important: There is only one constant in the Universe, and that is Change! From the smallest to the largest, entities come into existence, live for a span of time and die… to become something else. I am no astrophysicist by any means, but the idea that cosmic energy is constantly changing makes much sense to me. Stars are born, live and die to become black holes… to be reborn on the other side? Read and think!
What kinds of rituals we use to give us that understanding is immaterial, as long as it puts us at peace with the acceptance of our own rather short physical life span.
When birthed into Life, we are Pure Energy taking Form, and when in death we shed that shell, we once again become Pure Energy. In other traditions this is called a Return to God/ Goddess/AllFather/EarthMother. I accept all existence, the circle of Birth, Life, Death and Rebirth as synonymous with the Wheel of the Year of the Ancients in all parts of Mother Earth. Sadly, more wars have been fought and more atrocities have been committed over Rituals of Respect than over land ownership.
Stay with us Tom! We don't want to lose you back into that abyss. I am curious to have you share…if you can…what is it that continues to "haunt" you? Do you feel you cannot continue to maintain a belief in Christianity without going down the extreme rabbit hole of dominion theology? I am genuinely interested. I think it is something that will benefit us all.
Tom… take Leah's advice… share your thoughts… this is the beauty of this blog… there is no demagoguery… no condemnation of the free spirit… there are only teachings and learnings… and all are open to civil discourse… except for the occasional negative post.
I,m still stuck on the good in those movements and there is a lot , however I realize it's not a situation where I can have the good and ignore the bad.Knowing a fact (Intellectually) and seperating it from your heart ,mind , however you view it , is basically the problem.As much bad as I spread there was an equal amount of good .Bottom line I'm missing a piece of my life ! I'm 73 and I've faced death a couple of times the last few years and I'm not sure where I stand Spiritually. I'm not foolish enough to not know that a lot of the problem is phycological .I'm sure it goes a lot deeper. The good part is the demons are outnumbered( metaphorically that is) Got to leave it at that ! My wife is,nt good today .We got about a foot of snow today and it feels like Alaska .
Please tell your wife that we are sending warm thoughts her way and for you as well Tom.
There are indeed many many well-meaning and devout Christians swept up in this movement and I feel compassion for them. I often submit that if you were to ask the members if these congregations what "dominionism" means, they would most likely not even recognize the word. But – it is the top leaders that I truly take issue with and this is why I so fiercely defend Christianity over the dominionist 'c'hristianity. These elders and leaders are Phalse Prophets for Profit on the backs of so many well-meaning followers. It is just unfortunate that for many it is easier to follow and absorb, rather than to participate and question.
A foot of snow! There are unusual snow storms blanketing many areas today and Anchorage has had a blast as well! Stay in and stay warm….
When I first heard that an atheist in NC was being challenged I thought to myself, "I bet he's not in Asheville." Gulp…sputter. I was born and reared in Asheville. It is one of the most progressive, cultural and liberal areas of the south, sometimes referred to as "The Paris of the South." I had no idea such state law was on the books and in direct contradiction to the U.S. Constitution.
I see Mr Bothwell has written a book : “The Prince of War: Billy Graham’s Crusade for a Wholly Christian Empire”. "The Rev. Billy Graham, a darling of the Evangelical Right, has never seen a U.S. war that he couldn’t bless. He once advocated that President Richard M. Nixon bomb the “dikes” in the north of Vietnam. He also criticized the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. for speaking out against the war. A new book, “The Prince of War: Billy Graham’s Crusade for a Wholly Christian Empire,” by Cecil Bothwell exposes the camera-mugging preacher as a serial warmonger."
That book is going on my Christmas Wish list.
the rest of the review of Bothwell's book can be read here: http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/1...
… even in "granola crunching Birkenstock" Asheville? (This is not my term, but came from someone living there!) We really are in trouble! Who keeps turning back the clock???
I am getting a B&N gift certificate from the kids, I am sure! There are too many suggestions from all of you and too many choices! The Bothwell book may very well be near the top of the list. Thanks!
A problem progressives have is that they view everything as a dialogue, so naturally we want to engage the cult members.
This is not a dialogue. The founding fathers faced the exact same crazy religious power brokers, but they overcame.
This is not a dialogue because their goal and ours is different. To engage in conversation with someone who does not share your values or goals with the intent of debate and conversion is a hapless task.
Engage the moderates. Engage other progressives who are not aware of this issue.
Take part of this post and turn it into a Holiday Greeting Email, to share your value of love for this country's freedom of and for religion in the spirit of the season.
Share these thoughts with those who can be engaged. If each of us sent 10 people a bit from this post, that would be a great start.
And while their advantage is their cultlike following, it is also their disadvantage. We have brains capable of strategizing and engaging.
We can do this. We will!
I have been following your footsteps in engaging friends. Hope they will become more than merely intrigued and widen the circle.
Hi Sarah, the difference for our Founding Fathers is that the 18th century Evangelicals WANTED that wall of separation. They were close enough in time historically to understand the dangers of state-sponsored religion.
I don't really try to reach the Fundamentalists. I think they're beyond reach. But as you say, there are many moderates, undecideds, people who are only nominally one religion or another, people who haven't really considered any of these issues. We need to wake those people up. If we can't sign on today's Evangelicals, we can sign on the moderates, show them the threat.
Far too many people laugh at the idea of theocracy. Well, they laughed at the idea of Hitler in power too until he was there. I'd like to think we can learn from history, and avoid seeing it repeated, particularly here on our own doorsteps.
I agree that trying "to reach the Fundamentalists" is futile, but having been one myself, it would have been nice to have known there was a place, a group, a person I could talk to once I began to question my faith. If it were not for the internet, I wonder where I would have found the answers, the new friendships, the camaraderie? There are people "leaving the faith" bubble from all persuasions now. Some, to my surprise, are ministers. You can read their stories at http://www.exchristian.net or http://www.exminister.org.
Back in 1979 when I became a polytheist, there was no Internet. There was no support outside of the church itself – and I'd already lost faith in anything they had to say to me. As I said in another comment, Christians are conditioned to believe that there are no alternatives to Christianity – and after 20 centuries of practice, and 17 centuries of destroying every alternative, the churches have become pretty adept at it. But there are alternatives to Fundamentalism, both within and without Christianity – and I agree that people today are far more fortunate than I was 30 years ago – my own leap might have taken place much quicker had I had access to the wider world out there.
That is a great point! I am certain that more opportunity exists today because of the internet for people to explore ALL ideologies. It boggles the mind how many may stumble upon informative sites that potentially open their eyes to the dangers of extremism. One can be a Christian without being an extremist. Thank you for that link BTW…
I am sorry if the reply feature is frustrating…there is definitely a delay that occurs some times…not always. I find that myself on here. It seems to be random. Don't give up! We need you!
As an extreme right wing conservative who is NOT in any way religious at all, you people are sickening and scary. My kid is not allowed to say Merry Christmas in his school and there are no Christmas decorations at all, today, the 17th of December!!! This is YOUR fault. You should all learn to do with religious zealots that all mature people do: ignore them. Read your own posts: this is an attack on christians because some, or many, or most, of them are over-zealous about the religion aspect. Not at all unlike the attacks that have been made on jews, blacks, muslims etc. You are all insane thinking that you are taking back YOUR country. Nobody who thinks that kids aren't supposed to enjoy Christmas with decorations and joy and all of that can lay claim to this country. You are not the majority, neither are the religious zealots. Leave people alone. If you want to fight, identify your selves publicly instead of this "behind the curtain" attack by suing schools for letting kids enjoy Christmas. Psych evaluations for kids that believe in god? really? It's better for them to believe in Dr. Dre, or some athlete or movie star?
Fine. If there's a religious war, I will be on the side of the people that still teach people right from wrong, even if they use a fake almighty deity to do it. (… and I was trained in violence by the late (praise God for taking the fat bastard back) Ted Kennedy and his social engineering experiments when they forced to me to "co-exist" with gang bangers from other neighborhoods…) Yes, freaks, the unintended consequences of your meddling with society is people like me – taught to fight by being thrown into rival neighborhood's "territories" in the HOPE of promoting racial tolerance… Nice work, liberals, you caused more violence then you could ever imagine.
You freaks want to replace God with Obama and you WILL BE STOPPED… (see 42% approval rating and utter failure to pass Health Care). Oh yeah, it must be racism… grow up…
The one true answer to all of these debates is and always will be: Live and let live.
Idiots…
Thomas, first of all, it's hard to know how to take your comment – serious, sarcastic? Thomas Paine was not a Christian. He despised Christianity. Please do read his Age of Reason. I'm laughing as I read your post; I want to believe it's tongue-in-cheek. Please tell me it is.
Hrafnkell: Hoping against Hope is is futile… You asked for Passion… you got it, but not the way you intended! Be careful of what you wish for! Thomas Paine bastardized… may his Spirit Live!
Oh, nevermind… live and let lie… deep breath… let it out.
Thomas Payne some serious issues there. It took me decades to get over all that. I wish you the best of luck in your journey.